Comments on: What Would it take for One Emerger to wonder whether another Emerger is a Heretic? A rethinking of the Trinity Perhaps? http://inathens.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/what-would-it-take-for-one-emerger-to-call-another-emerger-a-heretic-a-denial-of-the-trinity-perhaps/ Fri, 21 Sep 2007 19:38:03 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Matt Christenot http://inathens.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/what-would-it-take-for-one-emerger-to-call-another-emerger-a-heretic-a-denial-of-the-trinity-perhaps/#comment-17 Matt Christenot Thu, 07 Sep 2006 21:22:32 +0000 https://inathens.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/what-would-it-take-for-one-emerger-to-call-another-emerger-a-heretic-a-denial-of-the-trinity-perhaps/#comment-17 Nathan - First I'd like to say that I have not personally called Spencer a heretic. This particular post was meant to call attention to an ongoing discussion taking place at www.jesuscreed.org. In this particular discussion the question came up of whether or not Spencer's views tended towards heresy. I found this particuarlly interesting, because it has been my observation that people of an emerging mindsets are very reluctant to speak negatively of each others beliefs. I often wondered where the breaking point was, and it seemed to me that this issue of the trinity might have been it. I'm not sure where the conversation stands as of now between Spencer and McKnight, perhaps he can fill us in. In regards to my statement about the 16th century, I simply want to avoid the mentality that wants to espouse any belief under the sun and then cry foul and play the martyr whenever someone calls them on it. Gymbrall - I believe you are right that the word "heretic" is a strong word and that we should be careful in its use. I may put up a post on the issue of heretics to generate some more discussion on this issue. Nathan – First I’d like to say that I have not personally called Spencer a heretic. This particular post was meant to call attention to an ongoing discussion taking place at http://www.jesuscreed.org. In this particular discussion the question came up of whether or not Spencer’s views tended towards heresy. I found this particuarlly interesting, because it has been my observation that people of an emerging mindsets are very reluctant to speak negatively of each others beliefs. I often wondered where the breaking point was, and it seemed to me that this issue of the trinity might have been it. I’m not sure where the conversation stands as of now between Spencer and McKnight, perhaps he can fill us in.

In regards to my statement about the 16th century, I simply want to avoid the mentality that wants to espouse any belief under the sun and then cry foul and play the martyr whenever someone calls them on it.

Gymbrall – I believe you are right that the word “heretic” is a strong word and that we should be careful in its use. I may put up a post on the issue of heretics to generate some more discussion on this issue.

]]> By: gymbrall http://inathens.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/what-would-it-take-for-one-emerger-to-call-another-emerger-a-heretic-a-denial-of-the-trinity-perhaps/#comment-16 gymbrall Thu, 07 Sep 2006 15:37:52 +0000 https://inathens.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/what-would-it-take-for-one-emerger-to-call-another-emerger-a-heretic-a-denial-of-the-trinity-perhaps/#comment-16 Interesting discussion, though I think I'm coming to it late in the game. I think I'm with Ariel regarding the question of what Burke means by “replacing dominance with love.". On the heretic front, I think we need to be careful with the word. Were I to use this word, it would mean that I would be willing to begin church discipline against the individual, the end result of which (if carried out by the church body and leadership) would be excommunication (earthly recognition of the unsaved state of the accused and severance of fellowship and communion) Serious stuff indeed. gymbrall Interesting discussion, though I think I’m coming to it late in the game. I think I’m with Ariel regarding the question of what Burke means by “replacing dominance with love.”.
On the heretic front, I think we need to be careful with the word. Were I to use this word, it would mean that I would be willing to begin church discipline against the individual, the end result of which (if carried out by the church body and leadership) would be excommunication (earthly recognition of the unsaved state of the accused and severance of fellowship and communion) Serious stuff indeed.

gymbrall

]]> By: Nathan http://inathens.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/what-would-it-take-for-one-emerger-to-call-another-emerger-a-heretic-a-denial-of-the-trinity-perhaps/#comment-13 Nathan Tue, 05 Sep 2006 06:56:05 +0000 https://inathens.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/what-would-it-take-for-one-emerger-to-call-another-emerger-a-heretic-a-denial-of-the-trinity-perhaps/#comment-13 There are a lot of ways to kill a person today without killing them physically. We may not literally burn people, but we still burn people. We may not be using the actual practices of the 16th c., but I think the point is that at times--most of the time, in my experience--there still is the dark 16th c. attitudes and reactions in our hearts, the tone and the general demeanor in which we conduct our theological dialogue. There are a lot of ways to kill a person today without killing them physically.
We may not literally burn people, but we still burn people.
We may not be using the actual practices of the 16th c., but I think the point is that at times–most of the time, in my experience–there still is the dark 16th c. attitudes and reactions in our hearts, the tone and the general demeanor in which we conduct our theological dialogue.

]]> By: Matt Christenot http://inathens.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/what-would-it-take-for-one-emerger-to-call-another-emerger-a-heretic-a-denial-of-the-trinity-perhaps/#comment-11 Matt Christenot Tue, 05 Sep 2006 00:53:03 +0000 https://inathens.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/what-would-it-take-for-one-emerger-to-call-another-emerger-a-heretic-a-denial-of-the-trinity-perhaps/#comment-11 Good point Ariel. Spencer, I don't think any serious student of history would deny the fact that the church through the ages has used the term "heretic" as a form of oppression and as a way to wield power. We should keep in mind however that most of this oppression came in later centuries as power became increasingly centralized under the papal authority. That's not to say that the reformers didn't participate in their fair share of oppression under the auspices of squelching heresies. This however, is not the 16th century. In this discussion let's keep in mind that the worst fate a "heretic" faces today is being labeled as such (and on a blog no less). There is a vast difference in having your views questioned and being killed for holding those views. Good point Ariel.

Spencer, I don’t think any serious student of history would deny the fact that the church through the ages has used the term “heretic” as a form of oppression and as a way to wield power. We should keep in mind however that most of this oppression came in later centuries as power became increasingly centralized under the papal authority. That’s not to say that the reformers didn’t participate in their fair share of oppression under the auspices of squelching heresies.

This however, is not the 16th century. In this discussion let’s keep in mind that the worst fate a “heretic” faces today is being labeled as such (and on a blog no less). There is a vast difference in having your views questioned and being killed for holding those views.

]]> By: AJ http://inathens.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/what-would-it-take-for-one-emerger-to-call-another-emerger-a-heretic-a-denial-of-the-trinity-perhaps/#comment-10 AJ Mon, 04 Sep 2006 05:12:25 +0000 https://inathens.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/what-would-it-take-for-one-emerger-to-call-another-emerger-a-heretic-a-denial-of-the-trinity-perhaps/#comment-10 <i>"a new place where we find what brings us together rather than what makes us different and still hold our own personal beliefs - replacing dominance with love."</i> I wonder what type of unity this would amount to. Given: We're faced on all fronts with people who disagree violently with Christianity, and we are called to love and even serve them. I don't see how this implies that we should gloss over gaping differences in beliefs, however. No matter if the beliefs are "personal" - since all beliefs are "personal" before they can be held. Spencer, I guess I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "replacing dominance with love." It's precisely because Christ's truth <i>does</i> dominate all other "truths" that I am willing to love my enemies. “a new place where we find what brings us together rather than what makes us different and still hold our own personal beliefs – replacing dominance with love.”

I wonder what type of unity this would amount to. Given: We’re faced on all fronts with people who disagree violently with Christianity, and we are called to love and even serve them. I don’t see how this implies that we should gloss over gaping differences in beliefs, however. No matter if the beliefs are “personal” – since all beliefs are “personal” before they can be held.

Spencer, I guess I’m trying to figure out what you mean by “replacing dominance with love.” It’s precisely because Christ’s truth does dominate all other “truths” that I am willing to love my enemies.

]]> By: spencer burke http://inathens.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/what-would-it-take-for-one-emerger-to-call-another-emerger-a-heretic-a-denial-of-the-trinity-perhaps/#comment-9 spencer burke Sat, 02 Sep 2006 02:59:33 +0000 https://inathens.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/what-would-it-take-for-one-emerger-to-call-another-emerger-a-heretic-a-denial-of-the-trinity-perhaps/#comment-9 Matt and AJ, Thanks for taking the time to dialogue. I look forward to the conversation both online and maybe someday in person... I posted this on another blog today, but I think it might have some value in this context as well. Either way a little more for your pondering. ______________________________________ The use of "heretic" can be seen as metaphorical in terms of how most people would use it - the "institution" of church trying to hold power, dominance or control over people, ideas or progress that they feel is threatening - but in reality end up exposed for the motives they had. Perhaps just like the movie Dogma, Barry and I have painted the religious landscape with big, broad brush strokes. Moving from "religion" to "spirituality" may give us the chance to leave a world of "catholic vs protestant, sunni vs shiite, red state christians vs blue state christians", to a new place where we find what brings us together rather than what makes us different and still hold our own personal beliefs - replacing dominance with love. It is interesting to see people equate dissent with opposition. When I talk to most christians they don't believe the church or religion are working. Many have pointed out how they disagree with the book, I respect their insights and have learned from their remarks. But then I hope we can have the conversation about how the book has sparked their imagination, stretched their point of view or challenged their understanding of the world and spirituality. Matt and AJ,

Thanks for taking the time to dialogue. I look forward to the conversation both online and maybe someday in person…

I posted this on another blog today, but I think it might have some value in this context as well. Either way a little more for your pondering.
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The use of “heretic” can be seen as metaphorical in terms of how most people would use it – the “institution” of church trying to hold power, dominance or control over people, ideas or progress that they feel is threatening – but in reality end up exposed for the motives they had.

Perhaps just like the movie Dogma, Barry and I have painted the religious landscape with big, broad brush strokes. Moving from “religion” to “spirituality” may give us the chance to leave a world of “catholic vs protestant, sunni vs shiite, red state christians vs blue state christians”, to a new place where we find what brings us together rather than what makes us different and still hold our own personal beliefs – replacing dominance with love.

It is interesting to see people equate dissent with opposition. When I talk to most christians they don’t believe the church or religion are working. Many have pointed out how they disagree with the book, I respect their insights and have learned from their remarks. But then I hope we can have the conversation about how the book has sparked their imagination, stretched their point of view or challenged their understanding of the world and spirituality.

]]> By: AJ http://inathens.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/what-would-it-take-for-one-emerger-to-call-another-emerger-a-heretic-a-denial-of-the-trinity-perhaps/#comment-7 AJ Thu, 31 Aug 2006 00:37:17 +0000 https://inathens.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/what-would-it-take-for-one-emerger-to-call-another-emerger-a-heretic-a-denial-of-the-trinity-perhaps/#comment-7 I appreciate the clarification from Spencer. I think the semantics of this debate have become too involved for some people to track however...I'm interested in your response, Matt. I appreciate the clarification from Spencer. I think the semantics of this debate have become too involved for some people to track however…I’m interested in your response, Matt.

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